If Cashner develops into a top flight starter and Rizzo reaches the potential attributed to him, what are your thoughts on the trade? This relates back to another thread about Southside Bob. I see great starting pitching as the most valuable commodity in baseball and young, pre FA starting pitching as the most valuable within that group.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I understand the premise of your question and all....but proper consideration would also have to be given to the injury that Cashner had, and was recovering from, at the time of the trade. He had just missed almost an entire season. So there was a level of risk already associated with him. Just saying when that trade was made it was part of the "deal".

That said....I'd take stud pitching any day of the week.

_________________
Proud to be UNVERIFIED.

Regular season: position player.
Playoffs: pitcher.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

They both affect about the same amount of at-bats per week.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

I don't think that means a whole lot. If a star hitter hit 500 HRs in one season his team could still lose 162 games that season.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Cubs fans say you take the guy who plays everyday because they are hoping Rizzo turns out to be a bigtime slugger.

Sox fans say you take the pitching because we have seen what Chris Sale can do.

The correct answer is to take left handed starting pitching and/or a guy who can be a serious ace 100% of the time.

_________________

Not at all. Rizzo could tear an ACL just as easy as Sale could get hurt. Mike Trout could snap an ankle trying to steal second base and become just a guy.

Pitching is a more valuable commodity in baseball than a power hitting first baseman. That is fact sir.

_________________

I don't understand the Erik Bedard comp. Is it just that he's a left handed pitcher because outside that they couldn't be more dissimilar. Randy Johnson would be a better comp based on body type and pitching style. Johnson had his share of injuries but managed to win a few games in between those injuries.

but the argument I made in the other thread is that a power hitting first baseman is available via trade or FA on an almost yearly basis. If you don't have it, you can get it. A top starter is rarely available.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

IMU, you can have Rizzo and overpay for a Scott Baker, Fausto Carmona, Gavin Floyd, DiceK, or Brandon McCarthy. I'll take Chris Sale, a true #1 under club control making little money going forward.

_________________

Can you really be considered a true #1 with less than half a year starting under your belt?

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

This coming from someone who thinks Brett Jackson's ceiling is MIke Trout.

No crazier than comparing Sale to Randy Johnson

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Isn't trading for a 1B, even one as good as the Cubs believe Rizzo may be, a questionable move to begin with? There are a ton of good 1B, but not as many pitchers with top of the rotation potential. The trade surprised me at the time because shows like Bernstein's were making this argument against signing a free agent 1B to big money due to the glut of quality ones in the league. Ever since acquiring Rizzo, though, that seems to have quieted down, and everyone is on his bandwagon.

Most discussion around Cashner at the time of the trade was that he wouldn't pan out to be a quality MLB starter. He was viewed to be a potentially very good 8th/9th inning guy. If that's his ceiling it was a good trade considering Rizzo's ceiling. If Cashner turns out to be a future HOF'er like Chris Sale, then it was terrible. Starting pitching>everything else.

_________________
Team Cutler.

Except that fact that Trout at the MLB level is putting up BETTER numbers than Jackon who is in the minors.

LAUGH OUT LOUD!

_________________

Ok.

Trout will be better than Jackson.

_________________

Yea, IMU, I like you and all. But you might be crazy on this one.

_________________
Team Cutler.

The efforts of the kind of pitcher we're talking about is going to result in far more wins than losses. He has far more effect on the outcome of every fifth game than a first baseman does on each game in which he participates. Even if Rizzo is the kind of hitter you think he is (He certainly hasn't shown it at the big league level.), your argument would have much more weight if he were a shortstop rather than a first baseman. His wins above average first baseman isn't going to be very great.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

I am going to go out onto a 4' round limb and say that during Jackson's first 70-80 games in the majors, he will not have as good of numbers as Mike Trout.

_________________

There's not a chance in this or any other world that Jackson gets near Trout because Trout is simply WAY more talented. Trout has elite speed, Jackson has above average speed. Trout is an elite defender Jackson is an above average defender. Trout has a plus hit tool Jackson has a below average hit tool. They have similar power IF Jackson can make enough contact and similar throwing arms.

Not to mention Trout is 20 years old and succeeding at the major league level while Jackson is 24 and struggling at the AAA level. Jackson may never reach Trout's floor let alone his ceiling.

In 57 games, impossible for Brett Jackson to get those numbers.
But, maybe he should get out of the minors first

_________________

Gavin Floyd has a tool set similar to Tom Seaver too.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

There are 2 good pitchers on that list in Grienke and Hammels. The rest would be the first base equivalent of Carlos Pena (and I like Pena).

The interesting point that Joe addressed is that an elite SS, CF or C slides the scale much more closely to everyday player.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

They don't have similar offensive games. Jackson doesn't have the hit tool that Trout has. Trout is 20 years old and having a huge year in the bigs. Jackson is 23 years old, striking out more than once a day, and struggling to hit .270 in Iowa. Based on what you've seen in 2012 from each player, can you honestly project Brett Jackson to do what Mike Trout is doing?

And back to the original post, I don't regret the Rizzo-Cashner trade one bit. Cashner's fastball is a little flat and he needs better consistency with the breaking pitches. Plus there's the obvious arm issues.

Andrew Cashner throws harder than Chris Sale, but Sale's stuff is more consistent.

I believe Cashner was a closer in college, plus I don't think he threw a lot of innings in the minors.

He had a nearly 5 ERA his first year with the Cubs. His second year, and first as a starter, he hurt himself in his first start and when he returned he went to the bullpen.

Yeah, if the guy turns out 7 or 8 years of elite pitching, this trade will be a loss for the Cubs, but what are the chances of that? Very slim. There is a better chance of Rizzo having a succesfull 10 year career than Cashner having an elite 5,7 or 8 years. How many pitchers are elite after 7 or 8 seasons?

Wood was a flamethrower, how did his career end up...what about Prior? Zambrano had maybe 5 really good years before he became just another pitcher. Lincecum, he had 4 great years, now his ERA is over 5 in a pitchers ballpark. Jake Peavy, Mark Mulder a couple more pitchers that had a great 4 years or so before injuries took their toll. Pitchers breakdown, any Cub fan over the last 15 years can testify to that.

I believe the odds of Rizzo having a longer more productive career are much higher than a guy who has yet to prove he can stand the rigors of starting...

If Sox fans could pick only one, would they rather have had Ventura's career or Jack Mcdowells?

Mc Dowell

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Is Mike Trout related to Steve Trout? It's such an uncommon name made me wonder.