Uh how is it not about whether could have drafted better? The Bulls having literally no tradeable assets besides Butler is a direct consequence of repeated failures in free agency and the draft. You seem to want to pretend that this is about someone they could have gotten for a 1:1 trade for Irving or some rubbish but when you have a roster filled with players no one wants because of systematic front office screwups, that's going to make a trade for Irving or any other player rather difficult.

You made a point that they passed on guys that would have allowed them to trade for Irving. Who were they? You can have 2 picks if you like.

How is it my 1:1 point when you are the person that first mentioned it? Drafting "better" doesn't put you in position to trade for Irving. If and when he is traded it will be for an All Star caliber player plus another starter. The Bulls haven't "whiffed" on that kind of player in the last 5 years.

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I made no point about any kind of 1:1 trade. The point was simply that the reason the Bulls had nothing to offer the Cavs besides Butler is because they have no other assets of any value.

There's no guarantee that if and when Irving gets traded, it's definitely for another all-star, especially since his discontent is now being broadcast to the rest of the league. Cousins, George, and JIMMY BUTLER HIMSELF have all been traded for non-all-star talent in the past 6 months. Drafting better gives you tradeable assets and allows you to put packages together for all-star level but unfortunately for the Bulls they don't even have anything to initiate any kind of conversation.

None of the players you named have the value this kid does. Gourgui Dieng doesn't get you closer to trading for Irving. You came up with a hypotheses that you cannot support.

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Nope, I've demonstrated you don't need all-star talent to trade for a player at Irving's level and that the Bulls had no tradeable assets whatsoever aside from Butler due to the front office's incompetence. You've been reduced to saying the equivalent of "Irving would get more than those guys cause I like Irving!" and excusing GarPax, as usual.

i don't see how you can argue that having better talent (just period, not necessarily all-star level) wouldn't put you in a better position to trade for an all-star

Yeah, Dieng probably would help. He's better than most of the roster

You still can t name who these "tradeable assets" could have been but you do know that they existed. Your GarPax bias knows no end.

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Gorgui Dieng is so good that they overpaid for the useless Taj Gibson. Again which players could they have drafted? If you think that Dieng and 2 other "assets gets this deal done you are delusional.

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It's not my job to go through all the draft screw-ups and name every better player the Bulls passed on, only to have you declare "That guy wouldn't go 1:1 for Irving so it's irrelevant!" That's an utterly pointless exercise and as Bagels noted above, having better talent in the first place can only improve your ability to trade for an all-star. Again, you don't need all-star talent to trade for all-star talent, otherwise those 3 players I mentioned all would have commanded better returns. The Bulls cupboard was completely bare outside of Butler due to the front office and that's the primary reason any Irving trade would have never materialized.

You referenced draft screwups when it wasn't relevant to anything being mentioned because it was the only way you could take your customary jab at GarPax. Once asked to support it you couldn't. Its ok as long as you own it. You aren't and neither is Bagels. The truth is that there wasn't anyone drafted after the Bulls that gets them Irving. You could have listed any two and you still come up short. His situation wasn't the same as any of the guys you listed above.

The fact that you cop out by saying "I can't go through all the "drafts" after you reference the "past 5 drafts" is telling too.

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Players the Bulls have passed on in the last five years that could have helped them land Kyrie:

Nikola Jokic
Malcolm Brogdon
Jusuf Nurkic and Gary Harris(bonus points for these guys since the Bulls actually drafted both of them before trading them away for.... Doug McDermott)
Gorgui Dieng
Rudy Gobert
Jae Crowder
Draymond Green
Khris Middleton

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

so ltg, are you saying you think GarPax has drafted well ?

I see FF is actually indulging your dumb exercise, but no it's not telling at all. The Bulls had no one besides Butler anyone in the rest of the league wanted. That's been my simple point all along and that's the primary reason they wouldn't have been able to trade for Irving. When you arrive at a situation where you have one tradeable asset and heaps of garbage, it's not a stretch to conclude that maybe the front office is at fault.

Butler and Irving at best, is a 48 win team.

Ltg, you can stop with the "no two guys drafted after the Bulls picks would get you Kyrie". I just disproved that. Jokic alone would get you Kyrie. Jokic + Draymond Green would get you Kyrie but it would get vetoed by the league office for being too lopsided.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

None of them gets it done. Draemond Green is a role player. You love him and you can have him. Rudy Gobert was a project

Gary Harris? NURKIC? You think Cleveland takes them two for Irving? The only guys that come close would be Green and Gorbert. LeBron doesn't want to play with Gorbert type guys either.

Jae Crowder? This is getting ugly.

Jokic does too. Let's see who he is eventually traded for. You overrate guys that you like case in point Jokic. He is terrible defensively yet in your eyes he's good.

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No they have drafted poorly. I admit that. There have not been many egregious misses and when you look at who they have passed on none in my opinion get you Irving. He is that good.

When you look at the past 5 drafts and you list 3 guys that Cleveland might trade for him then you realize what I'm talking about. Irving is younger and better than all of the guys traded this summer with the exception of Paul. You put him in San Antonio and they are instantly in a dead heat with G.S.

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Every player I just listed is a valuable trade asset. That isn't really up for debate.

Draymond Green is a 2x All Star, 2x All NBA Player, and reigning DPOY. If you don't think he's very similar in value right now to Kyrie you just don't pay attention.

Gary Harris and Jusuf Nurkic would be close to getting you Kyrie, yes. You would have to sweeten the offer a bit with picks or pick swaps I would assume. You might want to look up what each of these guys did last year if you think they are bums.

You have to remember that when players demand trades their value plummets. I'd rather have Kyrie than Harris and Nurkic, but I think if those two were still on the same team and Denver called Cleveland offering them then Cleveland is definitely listening.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Using your logic Cleveland should be willing to make that trade with Denver right now. Let's see if it gets done.

Harris and Jokic for Irving.

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Jokic won't get traded. He's a bonafide franchise player. If Denver and Cleveland were on the phone and this trade was proposed Cleveland says yes instantly and Denver thinks about it for a minute before saying no and hanging on to Jokic.

Kyrie is terrible defensively yet in your eyes he's good. So don't be hypocritical.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

It won't get done because Denver wouldn't give up Jokic by himself for Kyrie, IMO. There is zero chance they give up Harris AND Jokic for Kyrie.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'll say one thing... LTG NBA threads have reinvigorated my interest in talking basketball over the last 2 years.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

First names these days man. What ever happened to John, Steve and Mike?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

If Cleveland offered Irving for those two Denver does it in a heartbeat. Gary Harris is a bench player on a good team. Jokic is ok. Irving is a 4 time all star.

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No chance. Your homework for next season is to watch Denver and Jokic more often. Maybe then you will realize he's much closer to being the best center in the league and a top 10 player than he is a bench player.

Gary Harris is a 15 ppg scorer who shoots 50% and plays good defense. I'm not sure what basketball universe you live in, but that's a good starter, not a bench player.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Jokic is solid but he isn't a top 5 center at this stage. Denver dangled Harris as trade bait at draft time and couldn't find any takers. They like Murray going forward.

Jokic stinks defensively too. I like his offense but he is terrible defensively.

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Why do Bulls fans need to be punished by being reminded of Nurkic and Harris.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Kyrie and Westbrook are the two players you hype more than anyone else, so stop saying this like it means much.

Also, please name 5 centers that are currently better than Jokic. I can't wait for this list.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Marc Gasol
Deandre Jordan
Damarcus Cousins
Rudy Gobert
Brook Lopez.

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Marc Gasol
Deandre Jordan
Damarcus Cousins
Rudy Gobert
Brook Lopez
Karl Anthony Towns
Joel Embiid.

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