Both of you guys are ridiculous on this topic. I can't decide if it's worse to act like Kyrie is better than Steph or to act like Kyrie is a no name bum

Gotta admit my last post is objective. Kyrie has no "legacy," (yet), and to the extent he has one, it's entirely due to LBJ's transformation of that team from garbage to perennial contenders and champions. It's disingenuous to credit Kyrie for wanting to get away from LBJ for the sake of Irving's "legacy" when all of Irving's success thus far is due to LBJ. He's biting the hand that feeds him.

I don't think that's an objective take. I think it's the take of someone who clearly dislikes Kyrie.

LeBron and Love joining the team turned it into a title contender overnight, but you're acting like Kyrie was just along for the ride. LTG was crazy for saying Kyrie was more valuable than LeBron to the 2016 title team, but that's closer to the truth than saying LeBron gets credit for everything Kyrie accomplished.

The legacy question isn't really worth debating because it's such a vague topic. My only input on that would be to say every great player has some kind of legacy, and Kyrie is a great player.

I don't dislike Irving. I already said he's a star but not on the level he thinks he's at (Kobe, Duncan, LBJ, etc.)

I mentioned this to RFDC a few days ago but I have no issues with that. Every good player thinks he is the best player in the league.

Gotta admit my last post is objective. Kyrie has no "legacy," (yet), and to the extent he has one, it's entirely due to LBJ's transformation of that team from garbage to perennial contenders and champions. It's disingenuous to credit Kyrie for wanting to get away from LBJ for the sake of Irving's "legacy" when all of Irving's success thus far is due to LBJ. He's biting the hand that feeds him.

I don't dislike Irving. I already said he's a star but not on the level he thinks he's at (Kobe, Duncan, LBJ, etc.). LTG is the one who thinks Irving is seriously God's gift to basketball. The thread needed some balance.

EDIT: Pointing out that Irving's best (i.e. merit-based) accomplishment is one single All NBA third team appearance isn't me disliking him.

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It's not about me thinking he is God's gift to the game but I do think he is a perennial first or second team all NBA player. I don't think he is the best in the league but I think he is top 5 or 10. You are the one who thinks the world begins and ends with LeBron James. How is that for "balance". You don't even give Wade credit for what happened in Miami so why is it not surprising that you don't credit Irving what happened in Cleveland.

Come on man, help me out here. You're putting the degree of difficulty down to zero for vegan with these types of statements. How can you be a perennial first or second teamer if you've never made the first or second team even one time?

I think once he breaks away from James it's going to happen. Book it.

It's possible. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he averaged 30 ppg for a few seasons without LeBron. But it's going to be very difficult to crack the top 2 with guys like Steph, Russ, Harden, etc

I don't think that's an objective take. I think it's the take of someone who clearly dislikes Kyrie.

LeBron and Love joining the team turned it into a title contender overnight, but you're acting like Kyrie was just along for the ride. LTG was crazy for saying Kyrie was more valuable than LeBron to the 2016 title team, but that's closer to the truth than saying LeBron gets credit for everything Kyrie accomplished.

The legacy question isn't really worth debating because it's such a vague topic. My only input on that would be to say every great player has some kind of legacy, and Kyrie is a great player.

all of Irving's success thus far is due to LBJ.

Here's the part that wasn't objective and was easy to refute:

Well we can flesh that out. What I mean is that LBJ freed Irving up to flourish even more than he had been doing prior to James, and on a national scene which James provided. Irving is not on TNT on Thursdays or ABC on Sundays or playing in June without James. Once he leaves James defenses are going to be free to focus on him, and his efficiency will suffer because James isn't around to help take the pressure off.

Also, it is objective. I'll break it down:

Cleveland's Records
2012: Garbage (no LBJ)
2013: Garbage (no LBJ)
2014: Garbage (no LBJ)
2015: Finals (LBJ)
2016: Champs (LBJ)
2017: Finals (LBJ)

So to say LBJ transformed the team from garbage to gold is an objective statement. Obviously Irving played a big role but the main piece, the axis around which that team revolves, is James.

From this roster
https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... /2014.html

Much was expected apparently.

That's theoretical, and I don't think it's actually what would happen. His efficiency would of course go down because his usage rate would go up and that's just what happens for every player when that happens. But he's arguably the single best one on one offensive player in the league. I doubt increased defensive attention is going to change that.

Also, one thing you're consistently overlooking is that Lebron coming to Cleveland coincided with the career arc in which Kyrie would naturally have improved a great deal anyway, so it's hard to say what the team or what Kyrie's career would look like now if that hadn't happened. That's yet one more reason why I am in favor of Kyrie branching out on his own.

Yeah Kyrie was getting better but there's little to suggest that improvement would transform the overall output of the team.

One on one scoring is a valuable skill to have in the NBA. Especially in a half court game, which is why Kyrie is significantly more valuable than Russell Westbrook in a half court game.


This isn't really objective. If Kyrie got better it stands to reason the team would improve. Aside from that. you and I have no idea what this team would look like right now if LeBron stayed in Miami. We don't even know if Kyrie would be on it. It's useless to speculate on that type of hypothetical.

Of course one on one is important but it's not looking good if all you can say about a player is that he's good at one on one. So was Ricky Davis. Yeah sure there are unknowns about Kyrie without LBJ between 2015-17 but there are reasonable assumptions you can make based on objective data. Me reasoning that Kyrie wouldn't be a champ if LBJ stayed in Miami is much more reasonable than you saying it's useless to speculate.

Another shot at Westbrook but I won't bite...in the future. For now why don't you call me when Irving wins MVP, or when he averages a triple double, or when he leads a team with no other star to the playoffs. Until then you and LTG can enjoy Irving and his All NBA third time accolade and YouTube playlist.

Unless you think Kyrie and Ricky Davis are in anyway comparable, you wasted both of our time by typing that.

Kyrie probably wouldn't be a champ right now if LeBron didn't come to Cleveland, but who cares? Are you suggesting winning a title is the only way to have value as a NBA player? If that wasn't the implication of stating that, then what was?

Kyrie is free to do what he wants but in my opinion he's overrating himself by thinking he can get to the same level of success he's currently enjoying without LBJ. Good luck to him but he's not capable of getting to that same level on his own. If he's not interested in winning finals then that's fine, I have no doubt he'll have a nice little career averaging gaudy numbers and maybe making it to the second round a few times. Then he'll retire and be voted into the HOF. So boring. That's a fair assessment.

Of course one on one is important but it's not looking good if all you can say about a player is that he's good at one on one. So was Ricky Davis. Yeah sure there are unknowns about Kyrie without LBJ between 2015-17 but there are reasonable assumptions you can make based on objective data. Me reasoning that Kyrie wouldn't be a champ if LBJ stayed in Miami is much more reasonable than you saying it's useless to speculate.

Another shot at Westbrook but I won't bite...in the future. For now why don't you call me when Irving wins MVP, or when he averages a triple double, or when he leads a team with no other star to the playoffs. Until then you and LTG can enjoy Irving and his All NBA third team accolade and YouTube playlist.

I think once he breaks away from James it's going to happen. Book it.

Elite defender Avery Bradley

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/07/15/ave ... rd-in-nba/

He unfollowed LeBron like a 12 year old girl.

When does the elite defender watch James,Durant,Westbrook according to Hoop Stats he doesn't matchup against those guys named