Of course genetics is responsible when we're discussing true gender dysphoria. And that's exactly why "gender fluidity" is bullshit. You don't get to choose. That's called fashion.

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

Why bring it up if those people are wrong?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That is a contradiction. The same genetics that is making them a man or a woman is also telling them they are the other kind.

It's impossible to make an argument that gender is only genetic and that thinking you are the opposite gender is wrong since they both come from the exact same source which is your genetics.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That is partly sue to in discussions like this people take until you are halfway through the discussion to make the distinction. There is no way you can choose your sex. As far as gender is concerned though there is SOME choice if you think about it being complex.

As an example there has to be a different process for someone that is Bruce Jenner as opposed to a transvestite. One seems to feel as if they are a woman the other seemingly wants to just dress as one because they feel like it.

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Elections have consequences.

Jesus Christ it is Spaulding again. Are there not SOME people that think that? Am I not allowed to ponder the reason(s) they may think that?

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Elections have consequences.

I'm not trying to be difficult but it isn't my responsibility to make sure people know basic definitions of a subject they are discussing.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

In all but .3% of people they are the same.

Look, I like dressing in drag sometimes, but that doesn't change my sex or my gender. I'm just a dude in a dress.

You seem to be confusing a discussion on societal gender roles with one that is simply about gender. And that's a different argument entirely. There are those who would argue that it is strictly society that pushes men to be engineers and forklift drivers and women to be teachers and speech pathologists. As I said above, there is plenty of evidence that such is not the case, but it's still a subject open for argument.

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

That is because they are the same discussion.

What is gender if it isn't also about gender roles?

Do you understand sex and gender are not the same?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here or who you are arguing with. You seem to be making the contradiction. If you're "fluid" isn't that a suggestion that you are making a choice? "Today, I feel like a woman!" And look, I don't care if anyone feels that way, but the entire basis of your argument is that we don't get to choose these assignments.

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

Do you understand that for all but a tiny minority they are the same?

Women bear the children. It's very difficult to get around that hard biological fact.

You seem to be conflating a lot of stuff here. Like how someone chooses to "present" with what gender they are. Lesbians aren't men and don't claim to be regardless of how butchie some of them may dress.

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

Don't talk for those.

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Elections have consequences.

You said this earlier.


You seem to be arguing that they are choosing to do it after before saying no one was arguing they are choosing to do it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Huh?

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

If gender has nothing to do with sex, what is the point of reassignment surgery?

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

What don't you get? Are people who feel they are the opposite gender choosing to believe that way?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

How many times do I have to say no? I'm not sure what position of mine you find confusing.

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

That's actually quite an interesting question. I'd say it would go along with the human tendency to want to modify your body to fit more closely the image they and society believe represent them.

However, it doesn't really change the fact that no matter how many surgeries you have you can't change your sex but you obviously can change your gender.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I thought this might just lighten the mood a little.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... ALIEN.html

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Elections have consequences.

This statement confused me then.

I guess if I read it you are trying to restate my argument though I've never made the argument that it was a choice either.

Moving on though, if changing genders is not a choice and instead it was just how they were born then the same genetics that are causing them to have a sex of male is causing them to have a gender of female. They can't be contradicting their genetics if they are following their genetics.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I think there's a difference in so-called "gender fluidity" and true gender dysphoria. One is a real condition- we can argue about whether it's a mental illness or not- and the other is just the promotion of a political agenda.

What is referred to as "fluidity" is just people- usually homosexuals- deciding how they want to present at a given time. The whole idea of "fluidity" suggests making a choice. A truly misassigned person isn't fluid and can make no such choice any more than you or I can.

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

Mental illness is genetic.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

When was your father diagnosed?

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Mother

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I think when it comes to things like that there are a lot of people that feel conflicted and confused for a long time and our society has not been so accepting of the "abnormal" which only makes it more difficult to work through. I do think there are others that do it for many different reasons including political ones too.

I'm a little more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt given just how difficult life can be in many areas for people who are different.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This isn't about bashing people though. Gender dysphoria is a serious thing and it shouldn't be a political football.

We're talking about cutting people up and the morality of doing so. There are people who desire to remove their limbs too and we can argue whether or not they are mentally ill, but there are clearly moral implications to doctors performing such surgeries.

The fact is that suicide rates among the misgendered do not drop after surgery. And starting children on hormones before they have even hit puberty is just unconscionable. As you say, a lot of people feel conflicted and confused. In most cases, people who believe they have been misassigned when they are young simply turn out to be gay if they are left alone to figure things out. True dysphoria simply isn't that common. We don't let an eight year old make the decision to walk to a park by himself at that age but we're gonna let him commit to lopping his balls off? Really?

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

With adults, I view it the same as many other types of plastic surgery. If we want to ban all of those things then we can ban reassignment surgery too.

I don't believe a child is in a position to make that decision either.

However, I must point out that the suicide rates thing is not really a good thing to bring up. Society is difficult on people before and afterwards and in many ways society is worse afterwards towards these people. It isn't surprising that the suicide rates don't go down. They are treated as outcasts from society and unless they are very smart in where and how they live they will not have a life that is conducive to being happy. One day we may live in a world were people don't care if someone wants to be a woman who was born a man but that day isn't today.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That still doesn't change the fact that the surgery obviously isn't "solving" anything for many.

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General Jim wears Fort Bragg down... to get it!

Well, it doesn't solve suicidal tendencies but that doesn't mean it doesn't solve other things.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That's the Brain-Sex Theory on transsexualism. The research confirming it (and forming much of our newer policy on how to handle feelings of gender dysphoria) has been thoroughly refuted. Gender dysphoria walks and talks like a psychological disorder, but we seem hell-bent on making it an issue of brain structure, and thus, genetics.