You don't get it. It's backwards to only accept the Scientific Method when convenient. Seacrest gave a perfect example with the Eucharist. That's a backwards way of using science.

I didn't say all science by religion was backward. They've done it correctly many times. The problem is they often don't.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

There is not a single ounce of science that shows anything different in the bread and wine after the blessing than before it. Seacrest you've finally jumped the shark here man.

Obviously a man who was educated by Jesuits!

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The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

This would have killed at a fish fry during Lent. And yet here, it just makes our disdain for Catholics grow.

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You know the old joke:

A Franciscan, a Dominican, and a Jesuit are arrested by Bolsheviks for spreading the gospel and thrown in a dark prison cell. The Franciscan dons a cilice and drops to his knees praying for light. The Dominican gives a long lecture on the virtue of light. The Jesuit gets up and repairs the wires in the light socket.

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The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

I say this with all sincerity, that I am enjoying this thread on so many levels.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Agreed. Been a nice one to follow.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Catholicism has a love-hate relationship with philosophy and science, but their record since the C20 has been surprisingly good.

We named the Big Bang, you splitter bitches.

Where did you hear these jokes. i missed all of them!!!

Except this one. The priest is a good friend of mine.

Rabbi , Priest , Black Guy, get on a plane


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__4JiQI3N6Q

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I posted it earlier in the thread.

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I wanted to circle back to this one .... I can assure you that an actual Lutheran belief is much, much closer to Rome's view rather than some dreadful some "it's just a symbol" interpretation.

The over-generalized rule of thumb is, iirc, that Rome says once it's changed it's immutably changed for ever (thus transsubstantiation, somewhat related to the word transmogrification) whereas in a proper* Lutheran church, the body and blood of Christ is "in, with, and under" the bread and wine at the time of consecration but not after the Eucharist. Again, over-generalized but enough to show that while very different, it's not completely incongruous like it is with symbolism.

(* - There are MANY so-called Lutheran joints that are Lutheran in the same way that Bea Arthur was a swell looker)



Well, how's about you perform a good work and point us to which post that is, eh?

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Yeah, cuz the "scientific" explanation of the universe doesn't rest on a yoooge leap of faith:

Here's my good work DT.


Eucharistic miracles 1,300 years apart show same blood type and DNA
[/b]
After scientific investigation, a eucharistic miracle in Poland was recently confirmed as authentic by the local bishop of the area. Initially, the Host had fallen on the ground, so it was placed in water, as is customarily done in such cases. Not long afterward, the Eucharist began turning red, as if bloody.

Tests subsequently done on the subject indicated it came from human tissue "most similar to the heart muscle ... as it appears under the strains of agony."

The case is similar to one that occurred in Buenos Aires, Argentina years ago. In 1996, when then-Bishop Jorge Bergoglio (now Pope Francis) was an auxiliary bishop there under Cdl. Antonio Quarracino. A consecrated Host was found on the ground and soon placed in a glass of water to dissolve. Days later, the Eucharist wasn't dissolved at all — it had turned into bloody Flesh.

Cardinal Quarracino and Bp. Bergoglio took a photograph of the bloody Host for the record, then stored it in a tabernacle to decompose. In 1999, three years later, that same bloody Flesh remained. That's when Dr. Ricardo Castañón, a Bolivian neurophysiologist, was called in to have samples from the Host examined in a laboratory environment.
Doctor Castañón took it to the San Francisco Forensic Institute without telling anyone there what it was or where it came from. After testing, he was told the samples constituted heart muscle, specifically from the myocardium of the left ventricle. Further, the tests showed the blood was human, with human DNA, and of the rare AB-positive type — the same as found on the Shroud of Turin.

Following those results, the Host was taken to Dr. Frederick Zugibe, an esteemed cardiologist and forensic pathologist at Columbia University in New York. According to Dr. Castañón, Dr. Zugibe tested the samples he was given and said the person whose heart it came from must have been tortured. Further, Dr. Zugibe was reportedly amazed that when he studied the samples, they were pulsating like a living, beating heart.

When Dr. Castañón first came across the miracle in 1999, he was an atheist. Today, he's a Catholic.

After that, the results of the tests were compared to samples from another eucharistic miracle that took place in Lanciano, Italy roughly 1,300 years ago. The Body and Blood from that miracle are still preserved at a church in the town. In 1970, they were examined scientifically and, like the Buenos Aires sample, found to be from a human heart with AB-positive blood.

Image
The miracle of Lanciano on display
The comparison indicated that the samples from both Buenos Aires and Lanciano must have come from the same man. They both had the exact same DNA.

Church leaders are always careful to test potential miracles and rule out natural causes. Last year, in Utah, a Host that had been dropped and kept in water appeared blood red after days. However, after a thorough investigation, the red substance turned out not to be blood but rather mold. So the Church isn't quick to label every case like this miraculous. But sometimes, after healthy skepticism and cautious investigation, there's no other conclusion that can be draw

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Hoo-kay.

So, what we have here is a case not where you believe in science itself but, rather, you believe that this 'study' merits being considered having been carried out in anything resembling a 'scientific' fashion.

Dubious materials and non-independently substantiated claims do not a scientific discovery make. See also anti-vaxxers and believers (note that word btw) in chiropractic "medicine".

One cannot start with a more or less planned narrative and then essentially make the findings fit said narrative (either by citing vaguely correlative similarities to one thing or another or outright falsifying the findings themselves) and call it 'science'. I mean, I suppose of course one can, but when the jig is finally up and the study shown to be faulty (whether by choice or by accident), the 'findings' are rightly discarded as either inadvertent mistake or, as I highly suspect in this case, falsehoods purposely presented as truths for whatever reason. Trying to strengthen another's faith by foisting a lovely-sounding lie upon them is ultimately as nutritive as offering a starving man a picture of a Christmas ham.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

For maximum effect, listen to Tubular Bells as you read that post.

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What you have is this:

A consecrated host that change to blood and flesh 1300 years ago and remains the same today.

Another consecrated host that changed to blood and flesh in the last 25 years.

Both were tested by independent scientists on different continents.

Both contain the exact same DNA, 1300 years apart, on two different continents.

Say whatever you want, but take a minute and tell the class where science was wrong here.

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Tests subsequently done on the subject indicated it came from human tissue "most similar to the heart muscle ... as it appears under the strains of agony."

I mean, this right here alone should give you pause.

What the hell kind of scientific basis is there for declaring cardiac muscle to have been "under the strains of agony"? Does everyone's cardiac muscle look the same "under the strains of agony"? What are the exact parameters that separate "agony" from "distress" or from "despair" or from "elated" and how precisely is this universally indicated on any given piece of cardiac muscle, regardless of age?

Well as you can see here Dr Bert, this triceratops' femur is broken here and here, clearly indicating not only that he was running from a T-Rex or other similarly sized predator, but also from his creditors, over which he had been agonizing for weeks prior to his demise.

Just .... no. Ye gods.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

I think this needs to be said, but Don Tiny is making a better and more informed argument than I ever could. Well done.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Distressed heart muscle is found in autopsies on a regular basis. Furthermore, you forgot to mention the DNA matching. .

Hey look, science isn't enough proof for you. Relax, you are in good company.

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Not even you can argue the DNA Brick.

And hell, you'll argue about anything.

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Completely independent of your guy's discussion they may be thinking of how you can tell you had a heart attack via blood test. The presence of some biochemicals in the tested material may lead someone to think there was agony. It is worded a little odd though I will say.

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Elections have consequences.

but...DNA has a half life of 521 years.

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estimates that DNA from bone has a half-life of 521 years.

No one is talking about bone.

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Minor detail.

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Elections have consequences.

It doesn't though.

Based on their calculations, the team predicted that even under perfect conditions for DNA preservation, it would take a maximum of 6.8 million years for every bond to be destroyed

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Anyway, this is a pretty important scientific study and I look forward to reading about it in a scientific peer reviewed journal and not some church blogs, message boards, or pintrest.

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You are right. Ideal conditions in bone especially fossilized.

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Elections have consequences.

I will keep a look for it in Nature.

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Elections have consequences.