woops meant the pistons there

For as much as we hate Vinny, remember that Jay Triano is almost as bad, if not as bad. I agree with DB though. Just plain stupid on Vinny's part. God, he's in an idiot.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Is Noah a top 5 center in the East?

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Is there any question? I'm not counting Lee cuz there's no way he's a real C. I'd have no problem putting Noah above Lopez or Horford, those three are all very similar. I think Bogut firmly put himself in the 2nd spot before he went down.

Dwight Howard



Andrew Bogut
Brook Lopez
Noah
Al Horford

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

you're putting Noah above Horford?

I think they are interchangable honestly. Horford seems like he's developing too much Brand-syndrome. Has he really progressed like he should have the last 3 years? I think Noah will have the better career. Maybe Mike Woodson shouldnt be number 14 or whatever I had him ranked.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Horford hates black people?

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how should he have progressed? what do you feel he should be doing now?

let's compare for this year
HORFORD: 14.2 PPG, 9.8 RPG, 1.11 BPG, 0.74 SPG, .552 FG, .787 FT
NOAH: 10.6 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 1.55 BPG, 0.52 SPG, .502 FG, .754 FT

so he's grabbing almost as many rebounds while scoring more on better shooting overall.

i think Horford probably could be a 20ppg scorer, but bear in mind he's playing w/ Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Crawford...he's not going to be the 1st option. 55% FG shooting is pretty good even for a center/PF

Noah's number are a little skewed because he spent about 1-2 months of this season only playing 10-20 minutes a game. His numbers were a little better before the injury. I think he was averaging somewhere around 12 points/12 Rebounds a game before he was sidetracked.

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he was almost exactly at 12 per before the injury. 11.8 for both rebounds and points

I also look at things like the Bulls going 0-10 without Noah, then 9-4 when he got back.

Horford is definitely better offensively, but I think Noah gives you more intangibles and defense. I think he's definitely a better rebounder.

What I meant by Brand syndrome is that statistically, he's not much better than his rookie year

10 ppg, 9.7 rpg, .9 bpg, 49FG%
11.5 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.4 bpg, 52FG%
14.2 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.1 bpg, 55FG%

Based on those rookie numbers, I just thought he'd be doing better by now. You make a good point about him having a much better surrounding team, I just thought he would be great by now his rookie year. I dont think he's a great player. Noah might not ever be great, but I think it stands to reason that you can expect better, more rapid progression from him considering his jump from last year, to last years playoffs, and now this year. He's becoming a leader on the team, which I think is an important intangible that not many bigs have.

Like I said, right now I consider them roughly the same. I expect Noah to be the better player 4 years from now.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

i will say this- i think noah has hit his peak. i think getting 12/12 from him (or however you want to say the numbers, it's close to this +/- a bit) is it. not at all saying that's bad...it's pretty good

i think horford can still fine tune his offensive moves. like i said i think he can be a 20ppg scorer. he does actually have post moves, where Noah doesn't. i think horford struggles when he tries to back down people ala Barkey or something....he's not that dominant. when he makes his move quickly, he has a lot of success

Noah's shot might be ugly as hell but it's improving. His overall offensive game has improved, most notably his passing. And I dont think it's out of the question for him to put up a 15-13 season in the next few years. I'm positive he has the drive to get better. As dramatically as he's increased in the last 12 months, I'm surprised you think he's all of a sudden hit his peak.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

...he's doing pretty good...I mean do you think he could average 20-10? just asking. I think Horford can. I at least see some promise in his post moves and his offensive moves in general. Even if he's not there yet, I can see where he's headed. I don't see that with Noah. I think he could be a better rebounder than Horford just because that's likely his niche, but I think even if his offensive game is refined more, it's still not going to be any better than average.

I could agree with that. Noah's ceiling is probably somewhere around 12-14 PPG.

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Noah isnt the 20-10 type of guy. Randolph is, but there's no question in my mind Noah is the better player. I think, barring injury, Noah's prime will consist of 14-13 type seasons with about 2 blocks. His impact wont just be measurable by statistics though. I have a feeling he's the type of guy that will play on alot of winning teams in his career.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul