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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:59 am 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Good post.

I think if the Archdiocese decided today that they wanted to open back up fully tomorrow, the Governor who have no real choice but to give in.


:lol: :lol: :lol: They are nearly bankrupt from paying the pedophile cases, you really think the Archdiocese has appetite to defy executive orders and fight this in court?


If they wanted to, they wouldn't have to fight in court.

They'd have priests and parishoners holding sit-ins in churches across the city.


They would be dispersed immediately.


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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:59 am 
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B Mac wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Darkside wrote:
b mac wrote:
Mainly because I've stayed completely rational with you all along. You're already calling me names and lashing out. Why are you being combative? You've been back for what a week?


your opening response
Darkside wrote:
Uh huh.
Ok so does anyone else who actually knows what they're talking about want to join the discussion?

Lakemoor DiCaro strikes again.


Find us the post where he said government was evil.

Maybe you're new here....


So you can't find it? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:00 am 
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Harvard Dan wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Freedom of religion does not guarantee you have to go to a church. You can watch services on TV or online, and pray to whatever or whomever you want in your home or in your yard.

It does though. It specifically says "... no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Matthew 6 also quite clearly says that you should pray by yourself, that those who need to do it publicly are hypocrites. So if you are following the bible, you shouldn't have any issue with this.


That is not what it says. "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others" (Matthew 6:5 NIV). Those people who choose to do it publicly aren't hypocrites rather don't be like those who are doing it publicly to be seen. Continuing on with your flawed thought, assembling at a church (or any house of worship) is more than just prayer. As has been noted there is teaching, preaching, and sacraments. To hold to that scripture to say that people who pray in public are hypocrites is tenuous as best and borderline willful ignorance at worst.

If you think these people who are complaining that they can't pack their mega churches are doing so because they truly believe that's the only way they can worship and not so they can go "LOOK AT ME PRAYING AND BEING RELIGIOUS" then that is willful ignorance.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:01 am 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Good post.

I think if the Archdiocese decided today that they wanted to open back up fully tomorrow, the Governor who have no real choice but to give in.


:lol: :lol: :lol: They are nearly bankrupt from paying the pedophile cases, you really think the Archdiocese has appetite to defy executive orders and fight this in court?


If they wanted to, they wouldn't have to fight in court.

They'd have priests and parishoners holding sit-ins in churches across the city.


They might be able to find 1-2 good lawyers who are of the faith and currently have some time on their hands. Some ACLU lawyer would orgasm to be able to champion this scenario

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:01 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Darkside wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Yes. We are. You post one of 2 things "the government is evil and taking away our rights" or "nuh uh!!!"

I pointed out the scripture that shows the people you are stanning for should have no issues with these rules and you turned into a baby because of who was telling you. True or false?


Scripture has no bearing on what the government is doing.

Frank, you are completely wrong. You are so wrong I don't even know how you think you could be right but it's very entertaining. So thank you.

Sure it does. The only people who are whining about it are people to whom their beliefs make it clear that this rule is ok, or those who just want something to whine about.

Could you or Darko please provide links to religious organizations that have a problem with this who are not Christian?

I'll just say this and then I'll disengage from what is likely to be an unproductive conversation.
I don't need the constitutional protection of religious freedom (well, perhaps I do because I'm also guaranteed freedom from religion as a result, I'll think on that) so my only dog in the fight at the moment is that governors all over the country are getting a taste of putting constitutional protections on hold. And that kind of power tastes good.
So, I always talk about slippery slopes with regard to constitutional freedoms. I've always said in the past that it is important to defend them all, even the ones you don't care about or for because they all dovetail in one way or another.
To put my final point on this, at some point, and in some cases already, things on twitter or reddit have been removed as being "false or fake" information. Do you want, during a national emergency, Donald Trump determining whatbis fake news to be suppressed?


You are a scholar of history. Honest Abe was much more heavy handed than anything we have seen right now and he is now a beloved cornerstone of our country.


Yep, suspending Habeas Corpus was a big blow to Constitutional Rights.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:02 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Darkside wrote:
b mac wrote:
Mainly because I've stayed completely rational with you all along. You're already calling me names and lashing out. Why are you being combative? You've been back for what a week?


your opening response
Darkside wrote:
Uh huh.
Ok so does anyone else who actually knows what they're talking about want to join the discussion?

Lakemoor DiCaro strikes again.


Find us the post where he said government was evil.

Maybe you're new here....


So you can't find it? :lol:

Crest. Darko's entire bit for MANY years now has been the militant Libertarian. Are you new here?

Or should I correct and say his bit is all government controlled by Dems is bad?

Give me a break.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:02 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Darkside wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Yes. We are. You post one of 2 things "the government is evil and taking away our rights" or "nuh uh!!!"

I pointed out the scripture that shows the people you are stanning for should have no issues with these rules and you turned into a baby because of who was telling you. True or false?


Scripture has no bearing on what the government is doing.

Frank, you are completely wrong. You are so wrong I don't even know how you think you could be right but it's very entertaining. So thank you.

Sure it does. The only people who are whining about it are people to whom their beliefs make it clear that this rule is ok, or those who just want something to whine about.

Could you or Darko please provide links to religious organizations that have a problem with this who are not Christian?

I'll just say this and then I'll disengage from what is likely to be an unproductive conversation.
I don't need the constitutional protection of religious freedom (well, perhaps I do because I'm also guaranteed freedom from religion as a result, I'll think on that) so my only dog in the fight at the moment is that governors all over the country are getting a taste of putting constitutional protections on hold. And that kind of power tastes good.
So, I always talk about slippery slopes with regard to constitutional freedoms. I've always said in the past that it is important to defend them all, even the ones you don't care about or for because they all dovetail in one way or another.
To put my final point on this, at some point, and in some cases already, things on twitter or reddit have been removed as being "false or fake" information. Do you want, during a national emergency, Donald Trump determining whatbis fake news to be suppressed?


You are a scholar of history. Honest Abe was much more heavy handed than anything we have seen right now and he is now a beloved cornerstone of our country.

A fun little Abe story is how he screwed the republic into admitting Nevada to the union.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:05 am 
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B Mac wrote:
Harvard Dan wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Freedom of religion does not guarantee you have to go to a church. You can watch services on TV or online, and pray to whatever or whomever you want in your home or in your yard.

It does though. It specifically says "... no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Matthew 6 also quite clearly says that you should pray by yourself, that those who need to do it publicly are hypocrites. So if you are following the bible, you shouldn't have any issue with this.


That is not what it says. "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others" (Matthew 6:5 NIV). Those people who choose to do it publicly aren't hypocrites rather don't be like those who are doing it publicly to be seen. Continuing on with your flawed thought, assembling at a church (or any house of worship) is more than just prayer. As has been noted there is teaching, preaching, and sacraments. To hold to that scripture to say that people who pray in public are hypocrites is tenuous as best and borderline willful ignorance at worst.

If you think these people who are complaining that they can't pack their mega churches are doing so because they truly believe that's the only way they can worship and not so they can go "LOOK AT ME PRAYING AND BEING RELIGIOUS" then that is willful ignorance.


You or I don't know what is in their hearts. If you believe that they are all faking and hypocrites that is your interpretation. Your argument was fallacious to begin with and now you have pivoted to questioning the beliefs of those at a Megachurch. Besides, the hypocrite part that you are citing...in your megachurch example now has to do with "worship" whereas what you quoted from Matthew has to do with prayer. You were saying about being willfully ignorant?

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An unjust law is no law at all--St. Augustine of Hippo

Cause tried and true
I see the light in you
Oh, can you dig in my soul?
Could you smell my whole...
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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:06 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Some ACLU lawyer would orgasm to be able to champion this scenario


Yes, some lawyer from the most liberal organization in this country can't wait to jump in and help the biggest anti pro-choice movement out there. Serious question, do you have brain damage?


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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:07 am 
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Harvard Dan wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Freedom of religion does not guarantee you have to go to a church. You can watch services on TV or online, and pray to whatever or whomever you want in your home or in your yard.

It does though. It specifically says "... no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Matthew 6 also quite clearly says that you should pray by yourself, that those who need to do it publicly are hypocrites. So if you are following the bible, you shouldn't have any issue with this.


That is not what it says. "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others" (Matthew 6:5 NIV). Those people who choose to do it publicly aren't hypocrites rather don't be like those who are doing it publicly to be seen. Continuing on with your flawed thought, assembling at a church (or any house of worship) is more than just prayer. As has been noted there is teaching, preaching, and sacraments. To hold to that scripture to say that people who pray in public are hypocrites is tenuous as best and borderline willful ignorance at worst.


Yep.

That was an odd interpretation. I could see how you could get there if you lacked context, which is always a danger in some of these american charismatic christian sects

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:07 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Some ACLU lawyer would orgasm to be able to champion this scenario


Yes, some lawyer from the most liberal organization in this country can't wait to jump in and help the biggest anti pro-choice movement out there. Serious question, do you have brain damage?


An ACLU lawyer with a chance to sue the federal government? Of course they'd jump at the chance.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:08 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Good post.

I think if the Archdiocese decided today that they wanted to open back up fully tomorrow, the Governor who have no real choice but to give in.


:lol: :lol: :lol: They are nearly bankrupt from paying the pedophile cases, you really think the Archdiocese has appetite to defy executive orders and fight this in court?


If they wanted to, they wouldn't have to fight in court.

They'd have priests and parishoners holding sit-ins in churches across the city.


They might be able to find 1-2 good lawyers who are of the faith and currently have some time on their hands. Some ACLU lawyer would orgasm to be able to champion this scenario


:lol:

Exactly.

It wouldn't cost the Archdiocese a cent.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Some ACLU lawyer would orgasm to be able to champion this scenario


Yes, some lawyer from the most liberal organization in this country can't wait to jump in and help the biggest anti pro-choice movement out there. Serious question, do you have brain damage?


Another candidate for being tapped on the shoulder and asked to sit out

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:10 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Some ACLU lawyer would orgasm to be able to champion this scenario


Yes, some lawyer from the most liberal organization in this country can't wait to jump in and help the biggest anti pro-choice movement out there. Serious question, do you have brain damage?


My wife's best friend is Ed Yohnka's sister.

I can promise you that the ACLU would jump in to defend the Catholic Church in a NY minute.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:11 am 
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Harvard Dan wrote:
You or I don't know what is in their hearts. If you believe that they are all faking and hypocrites that is your interpretation. Your argument was fallacious to begin with and now you have pivoted to questioning the beliefs of those at a Megachurch. Besides, the hypocrite part that you are citing...in your megachurch example now has to do with "worship" whereas what you quoted from Matthew has to do with prayer. You were saying about being willfully ignorant?

Wherever 2 or more are gathered. Matthew 18. Tell me where it says 50 or 500 or 1000. I'm not pivoting at all. I'm citing examples from the only people with a bug up their ass about it (plus people like Darko who just want to complain)

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:14 am 
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The context of Matthew 18 has nothing to do with corporate worship. It is dealing with a believer who wrongs you.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:16 am 
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RFDC wrote:
The context of Matthew 18 has nothing to do with corporate worship. It is dealing with a believer who wrongs you.

We're not allowed context remember. Only the words on the page.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:17 am 
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And I'm sure the Catholic church wants the ALCU brand all over them. You people are fucking lunatics :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:19 am 
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One might think the NRA wouldnt want the brand of the ACLU on them but they agree on many principles and cited each other often.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:20 am 
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Darkside wrote:
One might think the NRA wouldnt want the brand of the ACLU on them but they agree on many principles and cited each other often.



Yes to both the NRA and the Catholic Church.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:22 am 
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Then, if any parishioners got sick, they would be open to lawsuits against them. The archdiocese is still pushing the "Catholic Plea" big time, "Please help us pay for these kiddy diddlers". I don't think they want to add COVID-19 deaths to that. Live in reality here!


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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:24 am 
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Looks like Bob needed to blow off some steam after pretending to hate government power grabs for so long in the coronavirus thread.


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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:26 am 
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B Mac wrote:
Matthew 6 also quite clearly says that you should pray by yourself, that those who need to do it publicly are hypocrites. So if you are following the bible, you shouldn't have any issue with this.


B Mac wrote:
Tell you what. Quote Matthew 6:5 for us. Then go sit in the corner and shut the fuck up. Unless you really need the next 4 pages where you will use your usual argument of "nuh uh!!" when people prove you wrong.


Harvard Dan wrote:
That is not what it says. "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others" (Matthew 6:5 NIV). Those people who choose to do it publicly aren't hypocrites rather don't be like those who are doing it publicly to be seen. Continuing on with your flawed thought, assembling at a church (or any house of worship) is more than just prayer. As has been noted there is teaching, preaching, and sacraments. To hold to that scripture to say that people who pray in public are hypocrites is tenuous as best and borderline willful ignorance at worst.


B Mac wrote:
Harvard Dan wrote:
You or I don't know what is in their hearts. If you believe that they are all faking and hypocrites that is your interpretation. Your argument was fallacious to begin with and now you have pivoted to questioning the beliefs of those at a Megachurch. Besides, the hypocrite part that you are citing...in your megachurch example now has to do with "worship" whereas what you quoted from Matthew has to do with prayer. You were saying about being willfully ignorant?

Wherever 2 or more are gathered. Matthew 18. Tell me where it says 50 or 500 or 1000. I'm not pivoting at all. I'm citing examples from the only people with a bug up their ass about it (plus people like Darko who just want to complain)


B Mac wrote:
RFDC wrote:
The context of Matthew 18 has nothing to do with corporate worship. It is dealing with a believer who wrongs you.

We're not allowed context remember. Only the words on the page.


You wanted to debate the meaning of Matthew 6 that you used out of context, then applied it to a group worshiping in a Megachurch since you were wrong, and now mention Matthew 18 way way way out of context. But you're not pivoting...just waiting for you to give up and tell to go eat a bag of dicks...or pivot or got way out of context again...

Just take the L...

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Last edited by Harvard Dan on Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:27 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Then, if any parishioners got sick, they would be open to lawsuits against them. The archdiocese is still pushing the "Catholic Plea" big time, "Please help us pay for these kiddy diddlers". I don't think they want to add COVID-19 deaths to that. Live in reality here!


All of which has nothing to do with your original premise.

Which is patently false. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:28 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Then, if any parishioners got sick, they would be open to lawsuits against them. The archdiocese is still pushing the "Catholic Plea" big time, "Please help us pay for these kiddy diddlers". I don't think they want to add COVID-19 deaths to that. Live in reality here!


Well the whole thing was hypothetical since the archdiocese shut down voluntarily.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:29 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Looks like Bob needed to blow off some steam after pretending to hate government power grabs for so long in the coronavirus thread.


Still hate government power grabs, but there is no violation of rights against the church right now. The only ones making scenes are the lunatic big box churches down south.


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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:37 am 
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Harvard Dan wrote:
You wanted to debate the meaning of Matthew 6 that you used out of context, then applied it to a group worshiping in a Megachurch since you were wrong, and now mention Matthew 18 way way way out of context. But you're not pivoting...just waiting for you to give up and tell to go eat a bag of dicks...or pivot or got way out of context again...

Just take the L...

Have you found me an example yet that doesn't fit the context? Darko and Spaulding are working hard on it. Maybe you can help them.

Or you could tell me how not getting in a room with other people infringes on your personal ability to worship.

Either one would be awesome.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:53 am 
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B Mac wrote:
Harvard Dan wrote:
You wanted to debate the meaning of Matthew 6 that you used out of context, then applied it to a group worshiping in a Megachurch since you were wrong, and now mention Matthew 18 way way way out of context. But you're not pivoting...just waiting for you to give up and tell to go eat a bag of dicks...or pivot or got way out of context again...

Just take the L...

Have you found me an example yet that doesn't fit the context? Darko and Spaulding are working hard on it. Maybe you can help them.

Or you could tell me how not getting in a room with other people infringes on your personal ability to worship.

Either one would be awesome.

Thanks


I'm not sure what you mean by this...you're interpretation of Matthew 6 had no context.

[i]Believers are encouraged to, "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward loe and good dees, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the having of doing, but encouraging one another..." (Hebrews 10:24-25, NIV).

Corporate worship goes back to the Old Testament and is a part of Judaism and Islam as well.

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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:01 pm 
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I'm persuaded by Bob's thoughts

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
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 Post subject: Re: JB
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:02 pm 
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Harvard Dan wrote:
B Mac wrote:
Harvard Dan wrote:
You wanted to debate the meaning of Matthew 6 that you used out of context, then applied it to a group worshiping in a Megachurch since you were wrong, and now mention Matthew 18 way way way out of context. But you're not pivoting...just waiting for you to give up and tell to go eat a bag of dicks...or pivot or got way out of context again...

Just take the L...

Have you found me an example yet that doesn't fit the context? Darko and Spaulding are working hard on it. Maybe you can help them.

Or you could tell me how not getting in a room with other people infringes on your personal ability to worship.

Either one would be awesome.

Thanks


I'm not sure what you mean by this...you're interpretation of Matthew 6 had no context.

[i]Believers are encouraged to, "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward loe and good dees, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the having of doing, but encouraging one another..." (Hebrews 10:24-25, NIV).

Corporate worship goes back to the Old Testament and is a part of Judaism and Islam as well.

Right. So please link me to which Mosque or Temple is raising a stink right now. Thanks.

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